Yet another scam by eBay... the buyer's word wins against the evidence in favor of the seller
Summary: The discussion concerns a recurring problem on eBay where the buyer’s word outweighs the evidence provided by the seller. The participants share similar experiences, expressing frustration with decisions in favor of buyers despite the contrary evidence presented by sellers.
Granted, I’ll definitely move my vintage and collectible items to other platforms, even though I had already done that for the more expensive ones, but this latest experience literally left me speechless in front of eBay’s obvious siding with sneaky/dishonest buyers.
Item sold, custom packaging and shipped immediately to the address provided by eBay (in this case it was a pickup point) with the eCP code nice and large and highlighted (with a highlighter).
Item delivered to the pickup point and after just 40 minutes collected by the buyer.
Buyer opens a dispute for item not received!
When asked for an explanation, he says the package did arrive at the pickup point but that they had already given it to someone else without asking for ID, and so he now doesn’t have his package.
I provided all the relevant proof requested by eBay, while they did not ask the buyer for any proof of what he claimed.
Granted, I could say (as he says it wasn’t delivered to him) that he actually picked up the package and now, in addition to the item, he also got his money back.
In this case, both logically and legally, given what the buyer claimed (delivery of the package without the pickup point recording the recipient’s details), eBay should have requested a written report (even a self-certified statement) about this oddity and then, at most, if the truth of the matter were confirmed, go after the pickup point that made the mistake.
Instead, they chose to resolve it directly in the buyer’s favor, blaming me and saying that I, as the seller, did not provide valid proof of delivery.
Yet I provided both the BRT tracking screenshot and the one from eBay Shipping, as well as the actual photo of the shipping label.
What other proof of delivery could I possibly provide, I ask? I couldn’t exactly be there at the delivery (400 km away from me) and film with my phone the courier handing the package to the pickup point staff member.
It’s an unbelievable absurdity... almost €300 lost between the €157 taken by eBay for the refund and the purchase value of the sold items.
But what do the little lords at eBay care? Money and goods are all put back by the seller... the same seller who pays the fees and helps keep them and their little operation going.
A one-way collaboration, they don’t even stand behind their own pickup points if they mess up! (assuming what the buyer stated is proven)
I’m attaching the tracking info as proof of delivery, which for eBay is not proof of delivery even though the tracking can be verified by anyone on the courier’s website, with date and time of delivery to the pickup point and date and time of delivery to the customer (double proof, I’d say)
(then they can tell us what counts as proof of delivery)
sharkrunner1982
·1 year agoSo the buyer had arranged it with the pickup point, or did he say something totally false?!
To better understand... as a seller, it's a chilling situation.
epoca
OP1 year agoUp to now I've almost always done fine too, even because those few times I had problems I managed to sort them out together with the buyers, or in the case of disputes I was always right precisely because I follow eBay's guidelines and I produced evidence and transaction documents.
This time I lost my temper because:
1 - loss of money and goods
2- being declared responsible for something that doesn't depend on me and that I can't control
3- because given the buyer's total lack of cooperation I am absolutely convinced that he lied in order to get his money back after receiving the goods.
Today I'm writing with total conviction because the circle is closing, I've almost reconstructed the whole affair (with evidence in hand) and may God bless the miserable wretch if he can't trace the last piece of the puzzle that nails him, then we'll see how much that little stunt will cost him.
epoca
OP1 year agoI don’t remember whether I had written it or not that in the meantime (during the weekend) I filed an appeal to the dispute, providing all the documentation in my possession, including the statements made in the messages by the buyer, courier documents, and whatever else I managed to get hold of.
Today I made a round of phone calls and I figured out the trick (I call it that because I can’t say it’s a scam/trick on the buyer’s part until I have proof in hand).
I spoke about it with customer service and explained in detail everything I found out, and I have a good chance of recovering what was stolen, even if he has already been refunded by eBay at my expense (and he’s probably even having a good laugh at my expense)
Finally, following the appeal I got the amount taken by eBay refunded
The rest of the matter will take its course outside of eBay; I’m not going to let him get away with it.
The false statement caused me financial and non-financial damages that go beyond eBay’s responsibilities, and eBay acknowledged the truth of my statements by issuing the refund at its own expense.
In conclusion, I confirm what user @heavenwelkin wrote earlier: avoid shipping to a Fermo Point (by disabling the option in the settings).
Sure, the trick I fell for (which I’m not explaining so as not to inform bad actors) can also be carried out with deliveries directly to your home, but at least in that case there isn’t a person in the middle acting as a go-between between sender and recipient.
Thanks to those who helped me by replying in this discussion 🙂
heavenwelkin
·1 year agoGood morning epoca
I’m glad that eBay took your situation to heart and decided to help you out by issuing a refund in your favor.
The forum is another help tool that eBay makes available to us.
Kind regards and best wishes.
epoca
OP1 year agoToday's update...
I don't remember whether I had written it or not that in the meantime (during the weekend) I filed an appeal to the dispute, providing all the documentation I had in my possession, including the statements made in messages by the buyer, courier documents, and whatever else I was able to get hold of.
Today I made a round of phone calls and I figured out the trick (I'm calling it that because I can't say it's a scam/shady move by the buyer until I have the proof in my hands).
I spoke about it with customer service and explained in detail what I had found out, and I have a good chance of recovering the stolen goods, even if he has already been refunded by eBay at my expense (and he may even be having a few laughs at my expense)
elettroinduttore
·1 year agothis happened to me too: someone sent an item back to me as not working when in fact it worked perfectly. In the package, he also put in a board that he claimed had fried my item (the board worked too). I pointed this out to eBay, saying that since I had the item I could also provide all the necessary proof; the response was: "yeah, but if we had to assign an expert to every dispute it would cost us too much....".
I’m a private seller who sells stuff every now and then, but if I were a professional I don’t think I’d open a shop on eBay - or at least I wouldn’t keep it as my only online store - eBay has already ruined quite a few people.
heavenwelkin
·1 year agoYou have to get used to the fact that online distance sales are far from being safe.
Still on the "it costs too much" front, I remember that many years ago for a very short period PayPal (which was owned by eBay) in the event of disputes had the goods returned to one of their addresses, checked them and verified that everything matched what was stated in the dispute, and then sent them to the seller.
That lasted just long enough for a blink of an eye, then it was removed.
In short, this system is still standing because there are sellers, knowingly and/or unknowingly (who sooner or later will get a wake-up call), who accept the fact that in the event of problems they will almost certainly have to bear the burden personally.
Kind regards.
elettroinduttore
·1 year agoWell look, it ended well for me because I got a refund of the shipping costs from them (I had uploaded evidence to support my case). I’m only sorry that it was something taking up space, and it was a shame for it to just sit there gathering dust.
It just seemed like a story relevant to the discussion. I’ve made other sales and, fortunately, the percentage of honest users is way higher than these guys. I just wonder whether, even when someone is ruled in their favor, behind the scenes someone still puts up some little flag for future reference.
heavenwelkin
·1 year agoeBay, in my view, compared to other places where you can buy and sell, is a marketplace populated mostly by honest buyers.
Anyone who behaves badly sooner or later gets banned.
Think that I was at my brother-in-law's house and I was using his home network IP, me on the laptop and he on the desktop was logging in with his eBay account.
We had to make some purchases and, by logging in with his account on my notebook, it wouldn't let me in; it was necessary to contact an operator to unlock his account on my notebook (which we did) and the operator asked us several key personal questions to verify that it was indeed the legitimate owner.
This is to say that the platform has various protection systems against bad actors, even users who have just signed up and move around in an unusual way in order to have zero feedback are limited or blocked.
The percentage of the differently honest here remains low, so if you're a serious seller who describes items correctly, with detailed photos that match, in the vast majority of sales everything goes smoothly.
epoca
OP1 year agoThanks to Marioeleggio for the news, I hadn’t found anything on the matter that confirmed my theory, even though it was obviously logical, and with this link we’ve had confirmation of it.
I’ll try to contact the fermopoint to hear their version, assuming they’re willing to cooperate (I doubt it, but I hope so)
Anyway, I do have the buyer’s written testimony admitting that they were told when they went to the point that the package had been delivered to someone else
In any case, the fact remains that eBay should have minded its own business and the compensation from the point should have been handled by the buyer with my help
Let’s see how it ends...
heavenwelkin
·1 year agoMeanwhile I’d like to know who it is that goes to pick up a package instead of the buyer, who knows the day the package arrives and what the fermopoint is.
Can the fermopoint keep a package for themselves by telling the rightful owner that the delivery has already been made? It seems like a very risky practice for the fermopoint because the rightful owner could ask who the package was delivered to and could file a complaint.
It’s very likely that, being someone known at the fermopoint, this buyer didn’t have to sign anything.
It’s also possible that, even though they signed the receipt at the fermopoint, the buyer made a false statement, counting on the fact that fermopoint and ebay do not exchange information about shipments and that for ebay it is impossible to refute what the buyer stated.
If the fermopoint did things by the book, you shouldn’t have any problem getting them to send you the pickup receipt.
Obviously the request has to be short and to the point, without going into the whole story, because at that point the fermopoint might put up a wall and back away.
You simply tell them if they could kindly send you the photo of Mr. So-and-so’s pickup receipt because you need to push for the release of the funds on ebay, otherwise you’ll get the money who knows when....
Best regards.
marioelegio
·1 year agoAnyway, according to BRT’s rules, you should be entitled to a refund from fermopoint ….
(from https://www.fermopoint.it/faq)
hi
mario
heavenwelkin
·1 year agoIn post number 8 I suggested contacting the fermopoint and trying to understand whether this pickup was recorded or whether they gave the package to him "on the cheap".
If the fermopoint committed negligence, whoever manages the fermopoint chain is responsible.
As you rightly pointed out too in the BRT faq.
Let's see if the seller epoca decides to raise the fermopoint issue or prefers to close it here with ebay responsible washing his hands of it.
Best regards.
heavenwelkin
·1 year agoThat said, you can request a POD from BRT for 5 euros if I’m not mistaken, but I think they still won’t reimburse you anyway; if it’s lose-lose, try that and let us know.
The eBay system has automated the tracking system and integrated it into its own platform.
If delivery is shown as completed, then there’s the countdown for releasing the funds in the case of new sellers or sellers who are not very active, so if it applies in those cases, it should always apply.
Now I don’t know how you handled the dispute because in these cases the automated process automatically sides with the buyer.
The correct procedure was to call an eBay operator immediately by phone as soon as the buyer opened the dispute.
If instead you let the dispute run its course, once eBay issues the verdict there’s no going back.
So let us know whether you called an operator by phone during the dispute and what the operator told you.
It should also be added that since they removed the obligation for signature on pickup, cases of undelivered items have increased exponentially.
It’s a fact that Fermopoints are also opened in places that don’t have enough space to keep them, and they’re often left unattended in bars in areas where customers pass through.......
I removed the Fermopoint option from my listings, but buyers bypass me with a trick by putting the Fermopoint address instead of their own and so with no eCP code at all.
It happened to me twice out of two that the Fermopoint tried to make off with the packages.
The buyers then came down hard on me........ in the end I got out of it thanks to the photo of the package showing the BRT shipping label, which only had the Fermopoint name on it, but I had added a second label showing the venue name c/o the buyer’s first and last name.
I said to show the photo to the Fermopoint and say that the seller would file a complaint.
In both cases the packages, which according to the tracking had been delivered to the Fermopoint but were nowhere to be found, had MAGICALLY reappeared....
In conclusion, I’d say that selling online remotely has become something for experts with thick skin...... Sunday hobbyists shouldn’t even get close to remote selling because they would very likely get overwhelmed.
epoca
OP1 year agoThe POD was requested from Ebay Spedizioni but anyway, as you already anticipated, from 2020 onward (the Covid year) there are no longer any signatures from the person receiving the package.
I moved right away by calling eBay support and explaining everything, providing tracking that in any case is automatically uploaded by eBay Spedizioni, they checked it and told me I had done everything according to the rules, then they sent me an email in which I uploaded all the documentation: original LDV with both the eCP screen of the BRT tracking and the eBay Spedizioni tracking, and also the buyer's message confirming arrival at the Pickup Point.
So the confirmation of delivery to the Point had also been witnessed by the buyer in the private message and also in the message in the controversy.
Yet eBay stated that I had not provided proof of delivery (damn, the buyer said the package had arrived and that they had handed it to a stranger!)
At this point, excluding shipments to Fermopoint I RECOMMEND IT TO EVERYONE!!! because from this experience we understood that if a package they handle is lost/damaged or delivered to other people, eBay still always blames the seller.
If then a buyer gives an address c/o fermopoin without eCP, that is a normal shipment and does not fall under Pickup Point shipments regardless.
But in any case, whether it is home delivery or pickup point or at a friend's bar, this experience teaches that as long as the buyer declares they did not receive the package, they get refunded, there are no Christ or Madonnas.
They make a simple statement without proving anything. The seller bends over backwards and even spends time gathering the evidence and sending it, and in the end? They always side against the seller!
Meanwhile I have suspended sales and I am moving to sell elsewhere because the items I deal in (mainly new spare parts for vintage cars) are unique and expensive objects and it is not acceptable to lose almost €300 like this.
Moreover, the vintage sector in general, but especially the historic car sector, has remained the driving category on eBay and they should hold onto it tightly, truly protecting the people who invest in it because if we talk about many other things (phones, IT, appliances, non-food in general) the competitor Amazon is light-years ahead and there is no way to keep up with it because that is another sales system.
BUYER MESSAGES:
Good evening,today I went to the center to pick up the package but they told me it had already been delivered.I asked for the delivery documentation but they did not ask either the person for an ID or for a signature, so now I find myself without my package, which I believe was given to someone else by mistake.How can I resolve this?
Hello, yes, I confirm that it was delivered but not to me, which is why I asked for the documentation of who picked up my package (which, incidentally, is mandatory to show as specified in the email I received) because I believe there was a mistake on the part of the center
After these clear statements, what more do we want to say?
heavenwelkin
·1 year agoFermopoint is a choice for the seller just as Ebay Spedizioni is, even if by default eBay inserts the Fermopoint option.
If we want to be picky, one could say that buyer protection covers the buyer, so if the package arrives at Fermopoint, evidently for eBay the buyer's statement is enough and the seller has to take responsibility for whatever Fermopoint does.
Because the tracking shows that the package has arrived at the Fermopoint but it does not show who picked it up (first and last name, which must match the buyer)
Another point against Fermopoint: from today, reading the forum, people will learn that all it takes is to have the goods delivered to the Fermopoint and then declare they never received the item to get it for free.
In any case, Fermopoint has the person collecting it sign a slip.
They have to enter first name, last name, ECP code, pickup date, document details and signature.
Try contacting the Fermopoint, point out that you will file a complaint, and see if they provide you with a copy of the completed pickup slip.
With that in hand, you could take action against eBay to ask for compensation....
Do you say there are other platforms that protect you more?
The problem always remains the payment method, which can bypass the marketplace in question.
A PayPal dispute, or a chargeback if the buyer files a complaint and the bank reverses the payment....
In any case, the situation is getting darker and darker for those who sell online, and I don't think there are marketplaces that act in the seller's interest when a chargeback request comes in, but I would be happy to be proven wrong.
Best regards.
epoca
OP1 year agoNot all Fermopoints are professional and follow the procedure they should follow, as in this case...
They don’t always scan eCP codes, they don’t ask for ID, they don’t have you fill out the pickup slip.
They definitely handle a large volume of parcels because usually they don’t work only with eBay and BRT but also act as pickup points for other couriers (GLS, DHL; Amazon, Punto posta, InPost, etc....) so to save time and avoid wasting it on paperwork, they hand over packages casually on trust.
But should this be the sellers’ problem?
It was eBay that authorized them to receive parcels on its behalf, not me. The responsibility is eBay’s and it should deal with the pickup point in these cases
heavenwelkin
·1 year agoIf the fermopoint does not provide proof of delivery and the buyer states that they did not receive the ordered item, the blame unfortunately falls on the seller.
Ebay should copy InPost's management with qrcode or unlock code.
The pickup operation would be immediate without wasting time.
The fact remains that if the fermopoint did not register the delivery and you have a statement from the buyer saying they did not receive their package, you can file a complaint.
In the end it is the seller who chooses the fermopoint service, it is optional, so ebay does not want to take responsibility because evidently it has recorded many cases similar to yours and has thrown up its hands.
I removed the fermopoint option in the days after it was introduced on ebay, I didn't trust from the very beginning to delegate the handling of my packages to newsstands, tobacconists, stationery stores, etc....
epoca
OP1 year agoThe Fermopoint service is chosen by the buyer at checkout; it’s an option enabled by eBay that I’ve now discovered can be disabled, but I’m not the one who chose to ship it there.
If I have to be crucified like our Lord Jesus, I’ll take full responsibility, not just for the courier’s part but also for the Fermopoints, then maybe next time a thief snatches the package from the buyer in the street and it’ll be the seller’s fault again.
Think about what happens if lightning strikes a buyer at the moment they pick up a package from the courier.... the seller’s fault!
ABSURD!!!
anyway, I repeat, with eBay it’s always the seller’s fault, so starting today things are changing
I’ll sell elsewhere, payments by bank transfer or hand delivery; I had already lowered the value of the items for sale on eBay anyway
heavenwelkin
·1 year agosika700
·1 year agoThe proof of delivery is the POD (Proof Of Delivery), the document that certifies delivery.
Kind regards.
pollo_bionico
·1 year agoit's the first time I've heard of a package being delivered and the buyer wins..... we're at the end of the line
epoca
OP1 year agoI literally said I was fed up
I attached the tracking precisely to show that there is double proof of delivery, both at the pickup point and to the customer, and yet... the seller's fault
I repeat... the buyer provided no proof of what they claimed, and yet they got refunded
heavenwelkin
·1 year agoIt happened to me too a while back with an UPS shipment going to France.
The package is not delivered because the recipient is absent.
Buyer opens a dispute for item not received, I was convinced that showing the tracking would be enough to be in the right, so in the text field of the dispute I reply that according to the tracking the package showed two delivery attempts that were unsuccessful.
The dispute is closed in favor of the buyer.
Disputes are automated and work fine when a buyer wants to return an item and the seller goes along with it.
But if by chance the seller doesn't send the label and the buyer lets the shipping deadline expire, they lose the dispute because they didn't ship within the deadline.
Disputes are automated and need a human operator's intervention when there are unexpected issues.
Kind regards.