Please help me deal with this scam
Good morning,
I personally buy a product new with tags in a store (a very, very rare item, so much so that there aren’t even any fakes, 3 pieces in Italy). I ask a friend who is more experienced than me to handle the sale of this product through his Ebay, since he is a certified seller with countless successful transactions and 100% positive feedback. I give him the item, which he keeps and puts up for sale. I’ll write in the first person for simplicity.
First attempt: the product is sold, I’m contacted by the auction winner who tells me he is abroad and will be able to pay me once he gets home, two months later. Obviously I cancel the sale and relist the item.
Second attempt: I put the item up for sale with an auction starting price of 2750 and 100 euros shipping.
I’m contacted by a person who asks me to close it at 2750 shipping included. I tell him I’d rather let the auction run to the end and that, only if there are no other bids and he wins the auction at 2750 as the sole bidder, I’ll discount the 100 euros shipping. Other bids come in from other users, while the one who wrote to me nevertheless decides to bid and wins the auction at 2760. He pays 2760 + 100 and immediately writes to me to discount the 100. Obviously I didn’t owe him anything, but I decide to send him 100 euros on Paypal (even though this is actually a loss for me, considering that I had an offer at 2750 that would therefore have paid me 2850). My mistake, and that’s that
I immediately ship the product to England (English buyer) with all the necessary insurance and with the fastest and most expensive method (to keep him happy and make sure he got it by Christmas).
When the package arrives in the UK, the user contacts me via Ebay messages saying he didn’t know he would have to pay customs, that it’s not his fault if with Brexit England is outside Europe, and asks me to pay him about 400 euros in customs fees. I refuse. He threatens me (again on the Ebay chat, it’s all documented) saying that if I don’t pay the customs fees, he’ll accept the item and then send it back to me, so that I lose 200 euros in shipping (100 there and 100 back) and about 800 in customs (400 to the UK and 400 back to Italy to get the item back). I’m certain about what I sold, that I bought in store, properly packaged, never used, and shipped right away. I don’t accept his proposal.
After a couple of days he pays the customs fees himself and the package is delivered to him. Everything stays quiet for about 3 weeks.
After 3 weeks he opens a dispute on Ebay for item not received. I provide tracking and Ebay closes the dispute in my favor.
After 1 day he opens a dispute (I think through Paypal) for item not as described. Ebay asks me for proof and I provide the card slip and the purchase receipt.
After a week Ebay closes the dispute against me, takes 2850 euros from my bank account saying they can’t know what I shipped.
1) you can’t know what I shipped, but before taking my money you have to verify that the buyer shipped the item back and that I received it
2) ok, you can’t verify what I shipped, but the buyer wrote to me in black and white in the Ebay chat how he intended to proceed and that is exactly what he did. He threatened and then acted.
Right now I’ve collected 2850, spent 100 on shipping, sent 100 to the buyer, and paid 120 in Ebay fees. They took 2850 euros from me.
To date I’m down 2850 + 100 + 100 + 120 = 3170
In all this, the buyer has the product, has the money, and obviously I see not a single reason why he should send the product back to me.
I’m asking you for advice on how to proceed, because this is a scam and it seems to me to be an absurd situation to say the least. I don’t understand Ebay’s role (they took 120 euros in fees for what exactly?). I feel cheated, scammed, while Ebay protects a blatantly dishonest buyer even with the evidence in the chat. This is a huge flaw in the system that allows anyone to operate this way, exploiting the imbalance of protections between the two parties offered by Ebay and pocketing money without even having to return the products. Honestly, I won’t accept that. I can’t think of throwing away 3 thousand euros when I paid for a service to Ebay that, in addition to not protecting me, supported the buyer in his scam.
flebas3154
·2 years agothis is the reason why I no longer sell on ebay unless payment is made by bank transfer, of course sales are reduced, but I deal in vintage watches, so generally fans of the genre understand and participate actively, it's a scandal that paypal always protects buyers who are also scammers. recovery is impossible, you don't even know where to sue paypall or ebay so accept bank transfers only
marioelegio
·2 years agoToo bad that on eBay it’s forbidden to ask for payment via bank transfer.
hi
mario
heavenwelkin
·2 years agoBut really, in 2024, are you able to find buyers willing to give up any form of protection when buying items remotely?
Granted that you may have hundreds of positive feedbacks, if you only ask for a bank transfer it means you don't want any kind of post-sale responsibility.
If the buyer receives the item damaged because the courier was careless?
If the buyer doesn't receive the item but tracking shows it was delivered?
If the item arrives different from the description and photos?
If the buyer receives an empty/open/tampered package, does he accept the collection with reservation of an uninsured package and then what? who protects him?
The market has now become saturated with users who have been burned by the various marketplaces over items sold at a fraction of their value.
And whoever gets burned once is unlikely to fall for it again.
Kind regards.
emilioga
·2 years agoHello.
I don't know how it ended. I'm living the same situation but for 1380.00 Euro, always sold in the UK, and if the buyer is real, as the personal details show, he turns out to be a researcher at a famous university who has also made 4 publications (????!!!!!)... All things considered, filing a complaint is fine and I think I have to do it, but when will I get my money back? For the refund they want 200.00 Euro for the item and we'd be down to 1180.00, and customs?... Sure, I'd get back 1000.00 Euros, but who can guarantee that this guy won't put stones or something else in the box?... Honestly, the scam was carried out with the complicity of Ebay, which does not protect sellers at all. I don't think it's legal for Ebay to return an item of my property without making sure it will be returned to me; otherwise I think the responsibility lies with Ebay. We pay commissions to make them rich, and after 23 years of honest work I was even reported. Cornuto e mazziato, as they say in Naples...
morgana10
·3 years agoHello,
I only now see the question and I'm sorry you haven't received any answers yet, it must have slipped through the cracks... I hope it's not too late. Here is my impression below, hoping to be helpful:
a small note just for the future: the 100 euros shipping should have been discounted in the eBay invoice to be sent to the buyer and based on that the buyer should have paid (but this is the lesser evil).
I read that you used eBay messaging and therefore the buyer's threat and bad faith are documented, you can try appealing the dispute, see here: https://www.ebay.it/help/buying/returns-refunds/fai-appello-contro-la-decisione-di-ebay-su-una-restituzione-un-oggetto-non-ricevuto-acquirenti?id=4039&st=3&pos=3&query=Fai%20appello%20contro%20la%20decisione%20di%20eBay%20su%20una%20restituzione%20o%20un%20oggetto%20non%20ricevuto%20-%20acquirenti&intent=come%20impugnare%20una%20contestazione&lucenceai=lucenceai&docId=HELP1308 ) even if eBay in this case will reply that the decision was made by... (PayPal or card issuer) but that does not change the fact that they must put you in a position to defend yourself by providing the data and, if necessary, telling you who to contact (since they were the ones who collected the payment and you cannot know how they collected it).
On the purchase receipt eBay appears to be the seller but in reality it acts as an intermediary, in substance the amount in question is charged to eBay, which collected it and then goes after the actual seller, as предусмотрено in the User Agreement. Consequently eBay must understand that either it also acts as an intermediary in disputes providing the evidence you give them or it is better for it to stay out of it and let the interested Parties communicate directly (issuer and seller). It would also be appropriate for it to wait for the return before refunding, as I have sometimes seen done with professional sellers.
It would be important to explain what happened better to an operator by phone or chat as well (from the Help section>at the bottom of the page >Contact us) keeping in mind that they call the number the seller has declared to eBay (not others, and even in chat the friend who sold must speak).
Check the requirements for seller protection and if necessary ask to make use of it https://www.ebay.it/help/policies/selling-policies/protezioni-del-venditore-caso-di-contestazione-del-pagamento?id=5293&st=3&pos=2&query=Protezioni%20del%20venditore%20in%20caso%20di%20contestazione%20del%20pagamento&intent=come%20impugnare%20una%20contestazione&lucenceai=lucenceai&docId=HELP1678
The reason why the buyer should send the product back exists because the purchase was refunded, so in fact he didn't pay for it, consequently the item became the seller's property again and he is obliged to return it at your expense. Otherwise he is liable to be reported for embezzlement. You should warn him in advance that you are arranging the collection of the item of your property and if he refuses you will report him. The problem with sales abroad is customs, which you will have to pay again...
I would start by asking the buyer for the return (so as to at least get the item back) threatening to file a report for embezzlement (aggravated if he uses the item) and if he turns a deaf ear proceed with the report to the police authorities (Questura, Postal Police, Carabinieri) finding out how it works with foreign countries (they should forward the report to the corresponding local authorities). You will have to describe the facts and have the investigation started providing all the documentation you can find on eBay messaging (but it also comes in as a notification in private messages).
You can search online for advice on how to proceed in the event of a scam involving embezzlement
in the meantime you can take a look at these links:
https://www.consulenzalegaleitalia.it/truffa-online/
https://www.consulenzalegaleitalia.it/truffa/
https://www.laleggepertutti.it/463860_appropriazione-indebita-e-procedibile-a-querela-o-dufficio
https://avvocatofrancescodandria.it/appropriazione-indebita-querela/
P.S.: Regarding the selling fees, eBay does not refund them in the event of a dispute since the sale was properly completed, and if the item was later disputed that does not depend on eBay, at least that is what I imagine their thinking is.
Let us know!
Best regards
jck1992
OP3 years agoThank you very much, please forgive me — I just created a new discussion with the same content because I was unable to see this thread after creating it, which may also explain the lack of responses.
In any case, thank you, as the answer was thorough and precise; however, I have already done what you suggested several times. We spoke with agents on both sides, many agents, and we tried to ask the buyer to return the item, even offering to go and pick it up personally in the UK so they wouldn’t even have to ship it back. Obviously, none of the messages received a reply.
I have already appealed the dispute and I was ruled against, so according to the agent I spoke with, I can’t do it again.
I fully agree with what you wrote, adding only that it should be mandatory, not just advisable, for the item to be returned before the refund, especially when we’re talking about such large amounts.
The problem here is the impossibility of escalating beyond the agents; you can’t speak to a supervisor or to the same person more than once. Every time you have to explain the whole story, and every time a different answer is given. Here the mistake is extremely obvious and I trust that by speaking with a superior, it would be possible to reason through it and find a solution.
As you suggested, all that’s left for me is to file a report with law enforcement, but I remain incredulous and stunned by how paradoxical the situation is and how completely out in the open it is.
Thanks again